2CPU.com » News » August 2001 » AMD: A Rose by any other Name...

Ed was kind enough to supply me with this linkage. Zdnet has an article up regarding a "new" marketing initiative proposed by AMD. They would like to counter the perception that their processors are slower than Intel's simply based on the MHz rating.

Starting next month, the chipmaker will introduce a new Athlon naming plan that reflects the processor's overall performance rather than simply its speed based on megahertz.

This probably seems lame to you, the enthusiast. Sure, we understand that a 1.4 GHz Athlon can knock the silicon off a P4 at a higher rated MHz in the majority of benchmarks available to us. You know what, though? Joe Blow buying desktop PCs for his home, or business doesn't. He might want the best. Bigger generally denotes better.

AMD has made huge advances in the enthusiast and home power user market sure, but the -money- is in home and corporate desktops. Servers too. With 760MP they're moving in the right direction with the latter. This new naming convention could be what's required to crack the surface on the former. It's not like they're cheating people. The Athlon is a rocking processor and certainly worth the dollar you pay for it. It should be interesting to see what comes of this. What are your thoughts?

SaintBob SMP Newbie Posts: 53 Joined: 2001-08-25

#11154 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:07 AM Remember the old saying "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM"? Well, the same is true for Intel. It is a safe purchase for corps. Tim

Jim_ Administrator Posts: 3464 Joined: 2000-03-15

#11155 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:25 AM Originally posted by SaintBob Remember the old saying "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM"? Well, the same is true for Intel. It is a safe purchase for corps. Yeah, I completely agree. Cory and I were talking about this the other day. Regardless of the advances AMD has made in the last year or so... If I was asked to buy 1000 desktop PCs for a large company or government organization tomorrow you can bet your ass there'd be Intel processors under the hood. Sad but true. [url="http://www.2cpu.com"][size=1]2CPU.com[/url] - Because two are always better than one! [url="http://www.jimkirk.org"]jimkirk.org[/url] - Not a Myth any Longer. Just a Dad.[/size]

SP Registered User Posts: 435 Joined: 2000-07-07

#11156 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:26 AM Well, one problem is the 2 processors are very different in their performance characteristics in different benchmarks. What you say about the AMD knocking the socks off of a P4 may be true in certain benchmarks but in some others it's a whole different story. So, which benchmarks do you go by? Also which benchmarks are more relevant to what " Joe Blow", as you refer to him, does with his PC. I'd say your average "Joe Blow" might be interested in multimedia and Gaming. Those are a couple of things the P4 performs very well at in some benchmarks. It may very well be that the things that Joe Blow are interested in are actually faster on a P4. On the other hand Joe Blow may never have even heard of 3D studios max or some of the other 3D rendering applications that are floating point intensive and run faster on the Athlon. What happens if Joe blow is interested in Quake 3 and wants to capture and encode some TV shows using windows media encoder. Those are a couple of things the P4 does very well at and performs considerably faster than an Athlon. So, if Joe Blow buys a Athlon PR2000 thnking it will encode his video as fast as a real 2.0Ghz P4 what happens when Joe Blow realises it doesn't. At that point Joe Blow is gonna feel cheated and lied to just like all the people who bought those Pentium relative rated Cyrix chips only to find out that in certain software that rating was not quite true.

Jim_ Administrator Posts: 3464 Joined: 2000-03-15

#11157 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:37 AM It's been my experience that the average Joe Blow uses his PC for word processing, email, web surfing, maybe a biz app like Simply Accounting, and maybe even listening to an mp3 or two. If he's doing video editing and what not... I don't consider him Joe Blow. If he's into heavy gaming, he isn't Joe Blow. (at least by my definition.) If he's only a moderate gamer, either of these processors would provide adequate performance.. Joe Blow has no real and clear concept of performance, or a real frame of reference. Actually come to think of it... it doesn't really matter what Joe Blow buys. As long as HE feels it was money well spent, I think that's all that matters to Joe Blow. I'm not dismissing the P4 at all, to be perfectly honest I'd like to get a P4 rig in the casa here to include in some comparative benchmarking when I do dual motherboard reviews. [url="http://www.2cpu.com"][size=1]2CPU.com[/url] - Because two are always better than one! [url="http://www.jimkirk.org"]jimkirk.org[/url] - Not a Myth any Longer. Just a Dad.[/size]

ReMeDy Administrator Posts: 12521 Joined: 2001-02-10

#11158 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:41 AM Your still on a dual P3 500, So does that make you Jim Blow? |[size=1][url=http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=279831#post279831][color=yellow]FAQ's[/url][/color][/size]|Heatware-Remedy{WcS}|Dual760|Beerology|

Jim_ Administrator Posts: 3464 Joined: 2000-03-15

#11159 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:42 AM Originally posted by ReMeDy Your still on a dual P3 500, So does that make you Jim Blow? Nope, that makes me someone who understands what he uses his PC for and someone who just doesn't up and spend tons of money on hardware just for the sake of having something that's quote on quote "high end". Computing isn't a penis thing for me anymore. Unfortunately that can't be said of most. :-( [url="http://www.2cpu.com"][size=1]2CPU.com[/url] - Because two are always better than one! [url="http://www.jimkirk.org"]jimkirk.org[/url] - Not a Myth any Longer. Just a Dad.[/size]

pastor SMP addict Posts: 278 Joined: 2001-05-04

#11160 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:54 AM LOL [ NCCH-DL rev 1.02 bios 1003 / 2 Xeons 3.0 Ghz nocoma D0 @ 3.2Ghz (215X15) / 2 X Cooler Master E3W-NPTXS-04 + 2 80mm 36 cfm + 2 80mm 26 cfm fans / 2 X 1 Go Crucial PC3200 + 2 X 512 Mo Crucial PC3200 / 6800GT galaxy modded to quadro 4000 / Audigy / Maxtor Maxline III 250 Go sata / Western Digital 120 Go JB / Maxtor 300 GO/ PSU:Tagan 480W / Case: LianLi V1100B ] [ 4 nodes Render Farm : Gigabyte GA-K8N51GMF-9 / Athlon 64 X2 4200+@ 2.5 GHZ / 2 X 1 Go DDR / Enermax CS-10068-MW ]

purice Aspiring Duallie Posts: 68 Joined: 2000-11-12

#11161 Posted on: 08/31/2001 03:55 AM "It's been my experience that the average Joe Blow uses his PC for word processing, email, web surfing, maybe a biz app like Simply Accounting, and maybe even listening to an mp3 or two." That's been my experience too. Joe blow also wants to run all those at the same time, along with aol instant messenger, virus protection software that he hasn't updated for months and 50 other things that windows launched at startup. tyan thunder 2 supermicro p6dls msi 694d asus a7m266d

SP Registered User Posts: 435 Joined: 2000-07-07

#11162 Posted on: 08/31/2001 04:30 AM So, it's okay to exploit Joe Blows ignorance? Anyway, I wasn't talking about video editing just simple things like Video recording on your PC or PVR. Also, I disagee about gaming. I think gaming is one of the things that might indeed interest Joe Blow. Look at the populartity of gaming consoles. Now, I'm not saying Joe Blow is gonna buy a PC to replace his gaming console, but I think Joe Blow does know that there are such things as games that run on a PC and I suspect Joe blow might indeed be interested in that. While it may be true that if Joe blow isn't a hardcore gamer he may not even notice that his system isn't as fast as it's supposedly rated at, but what if he's over at his friend house and just accidentially notices his friends P4 is performing much better and then wonders why his PR2000 isn't living up to it's rating? Joe Blow may not be a genius but if he ever finds out AMD has pulled the wool over his eyes he's not likely to buy AMD in the future. Also, what happens when developers start coding for the P4 and SSE2 and an application pops up a window saying that his machine doesn't have a "genuine Intel P4" but only has an imitation that doesn't support SSE2. It's doen't matter that Joe Blow doesn't have a clue what SSE2 means, nor does it matter that this may only be one application out of many others that don't care, as long as he knows that his processor doesn't support it and a "Geniune" P4 would he's going to feel like he bought a cheap imitation. Whether that feeling is warranted or not is moot because Joe Blow is gonna feel that way regardless and he'll remember the name AMD in a very negative light the next time he goes to buy a PC. He'll also tell all his friends that AMD is cheap junk and they should not buy it. It doens't matter that it's far from the truth because Joe Blows friends are just like Joe Blow and they will believe him. As for word processing and email an old celeron would be adequate for that. In fact for email and such as that there are even Internet appliances that could fill Joe Blows needs and may actually be easier for him to use. These type of applications really don't matter because they should run just as well on any CPU. Also, I believe that if Joe Blow knows enough to want a top of the line system he will notice these things. If he doesn't I don't necessarily think he will be buying primarily based on performance. I know this may be hard to believe but probably alot of your average Joe Blows out their may not even base their buying decision on speed. I think alot of this talk about the average consumer being lured to Intel by the higher clock speed is probably unfounded. I think average Joe Blows, who know little about PCs, probably base thier buying decisions on name brand more than they do speed. I think this is where Intel has their advantage and this new performance rating will not change that one bit. In fact it may even reinforce the idea of Intel being the market leader. After all poeple will think that if AMD is rating thier processors relative to Intel then Intel is the standard by which everything else is judged by. It's as if AMD is saying " Hey our processors are as good as Intels." A much better approach would be to say "Hey our processors are in a league of thier own." Have you ever seen a Pepsi commercial where they said "Drink Pepsi! Hey, It's as good as Coke."?

Jim_ Administrator Posts: 3464 Joined: 2000-03-15

#11163 Posted on: 08/31/2001 04:59 AM Originally posted by SP So, it's okay to exploit Joe Blows ignorance? Heh, you're looking at this from a far too serious perspective. I don't think you could classify this as exploitation. I highly doubt AMD's evil directors are sitting in their evil underground lair thinking up ways to screw Joe Blow out of his money. Quite the contrary, they think what they have is something Joe Blow would appreciate. I also wouldn't refer to Joe Blow as ignorant. He just has better things to do with his time then sit in front of a PC reading technical documentation on what processor will make his Simply Accounting tear ass. Things like raising his children, doing his taxes, mowing his lawn, etc, etc. AMD wants to ensure that Joe Blow doesn't discount their processor just because the number on the box isn't as high as a comparative Intel processor. Originally posted by SP As for word processing and email an old celeron would be adequate for that. In fact for email and such as that there are even Internet appliances that could fill Joe Blows needs and may actually be easier for him to use. These type of applications really don't matter because they should run just as well on any CPU. You're 100% correct. The downside of this statement is that Joe Blow can't buy an 'old celeron' from Dell, or Compaq, or IBM. He can only buy stuff that is relatively current. What's the slowest desktop processor you'll find right now? Maybe a Celeron 2 800? That soon is going to change. VERY soon the lowest thing you'll find in a Dell system will hover around the 1 GHz mark. Is it necessary to run said biz apps and IE? Hell no, it's just the way the market works. When Joe Blow is buying a system he thinks about longevity. He feels paying a LITTLE more now (and it really is only a little more these days, everything is really cheap) could be warranted if it increases the longevity of said purchase. Keep in mind I'm playing the devils advocate here. I don't necessarily think AMD taking this route is a great decision. I'm just trying to initiate some intelligent debate by taking the position very few people around here would. Jim [url="http://www.2cpu.com"][size=1]2CPU.com[/url] - Because two are always better than one! [url="http://www.jimkirk.org"]jimkirk.org[/url] - Not a Myth any Longer. Just a Dad.[/size]

JRoffe SMP Newbie Posts: 2 Joined: 2001-08-30

#11164 Posted on: 08/31/2001 05:12 AM I believe that AMD is doing EXACTLY what they need to do, to compete. They have great processors, they just need to get on the "Advertising Bandwagon".

BiffStroganoffsky I play a tech on internet Posts: 1419 Joined: 2000-08-24

#11165 Posted on: 08/31/2001 05:29 AM I always hated explaining to people why their PRxxx processor was really only a PRyyy processor. To make a long story short, they usually ended up feeling cheated. I believe this is one of the major failings of CYRIX (ok, beside the toxic levels of heat put out by the CPUs ). You can't help but see the same thing possibly happening to AMD - a PR (public relations) nightmare. Granted, the Athlons do offer better performance than the PIII and P4s for the money but not enough that the general consumer's jaws will drop when shown a side-by-side comparison on what they use the most. It could be argued that most people who purchased a CYRIX system got exactly what they wanted which was a basic e-mail, word processing box. There was really no complaint about the machine until they were informed that the number on the sticker on the front of their beloved machine was not the number on their CPU. Then they felt cheated. Anyways, I get the feeling that Joe Blows will feel cheated not necessarily because the machine doesn't perform like he wanted but because the company used less than 'honest' numbers to sell their product. It's the salesperson's job to edumacate Joe and not rely on 'performance' numbers issued from the manufacturer to sell a product. Can you see some Ford guy trying to sell a Mustang with a 300ci straight six to someone and telling them that it's just as good as the GT model which has the 5.0 (or 302) powerplant? (Ok, I can actually envision that happening actually... )

xup19x Unregistered

#11166 Posted on: 08/31/2001 05:31 AM this is good becouse now they r going to make a procesor that is not hight in megahertz but hight in performance,for example why in the blue hell they dont just stop making procesors at let said 1mgz and a bus of 800 pure power or even 1 ghz front bus,why not make a storage like a hard drive that is going to be able to keep up with the procesor,it might sound insane but im tire of getting higter megahertz procesor and the same lame front bus,so you can put a million megahertz in a 100mgz front bus and the procesor STILL HAVE TO WAIT for the stupid bus to finish sending info to the whole system ...just a thogh.......up19@home.com

Jim_ Administrator Posts: 3464 Joined: 2000-03-15

#11167 Posted on: 08/31/2001 05:55 AM Originally posted by BiffStroganoffsky It's the salesperson's job to edumacate Joe and not rely on 'performance' numbers issued from the manufacturer to sell a product. Heheh, The Salesperson at Radio shack isn't going to be educating ANYBODY. Unless of course the topic of discussion is picking one's nose, or scratching one's behind. If you work at Radio Shack, please understand I'm using you as an example only. I know there have to be some talented people working at SOME Radio Shack, SOMEWHERE. [url="http://www.2cpu.com"][size=1]2CPU.com[/url] - Because two are always better than one! [url="http://www.jimkirk.org"]jimkirk.org[/url] - Not a Myth any Longer. Just a Dad.[/size]

MechJock Registered User Posts: 10 Joined: 2001-08-30

#11168 Posted on: 08/31/2001 06:08 AM amd will always rule! with price and performance My momma runs on a Cyriz pr200@186x83

SP Registered User Posts: 435 Joined: 2000-07-07

#11169 Posted on: 08/31/2001 06:29 AM Originally posted by BiffStroganoffsky Anyways, I get the feeling that Joe Blows will feel cheated not necessarily because the machine doesn't perform like he wanted but because the company used less than 'honest' numbers to sell their product. Precisely, the fact that the chip is actually running at a lower clock speed than the rating will be enough to make some people feel as if they aren't getting what they paid for and that alone will make them feel cheated. I can hear it now. Misinformed people will be saying that the AMD chips are crap because they don't really run at the speed they are rated at and How P4s are so much better because they are "really" clocked at the speed they are rated at. That's not necessarily true but it will likely be perceived that way. A good car analogy here would be someone selling a turbo charged 4L V-6 and refering to it in a way as to convince the buyer he's getting a normally aspirated 5L V-8. The turbo-charger on the 4L V-6 would make it comparable to the V-8 in terms of performance. In fact depending on many factors the turbo charged v-6 could even be more powerful, but when the buyer finds out that the engine is not exactly what the seller is seemingly trying to represent it as he will become suspect that the engine is inferior and distrust the seller. It's the perception that the seller is trying to misrepresent the item that will make people feel cheated. Of course, I could be totally wrong and this could work out great for AMD, but I think this is a big risk for them and there is the potential it could blow up in their face. Another thing I think we may be overlooking here is that the P4 could get faster. I understand the new version of the P4 due out next year will have a larger cache. perhaps there will be other core enhancements as well. The Xeons are suppose to eventually get SMT support which will increase their performance. Of course, I know that doesn't apply to the desktop processors. However, if indeed the P4 went through some enhancemants, combined with the fact there may be more and better P4 optimised code out there It's possible we could see a situation where the performance shifts in such a way that the AMD processors rated to be equivalent to a certain clock speed P4 may not perform to quite that level anymore because the P4s clocked at that speed may have gotten faster. If that did happen you can bet that Intel and all thier supporters would be very quick to point out that the AMD chips weren't performing upto the level of a P4 running at the rated speed and it would look to the average consumer like a case of AMD overrating their chips.

neuro SMP Newbie Posts: 22 Joined: 2001-07-08

#11170 Posted on: 08/31/2001 07:57 AM Originally posted by Hole-yMan AMD no longer has the fastest CPU, so to make up for it they print lies about "comparable performance" to true Pentiums. While AMD beat Intel to 1G the 2G is all Intel's. Funny how AMD now is worried about MHz, ok so the deception isn't so funny. While it may be comparable in some areas, it isn't in others. So to say, or imply, it's the same as an Intel, is pure bullsheit. Marketing has rarely been about the truth. Sad but true. Just one more reason to NOT buy AMD. Someone obviously doesn't pay attention to bench marks... AMD SLAMS Intel, clock for clock in most tests. AMD is like Nvidia a few years ago. For the sake of comparison, Intel is like 3DFX. They (AMD) stick to standards while Intel trys to write all of these proprietary 'extensions' in their CPUs which require special software develpement (like 3DFX's Glide) 3DFX came crashing down... All of these extensions come at a price (lower FPU performance) If intel isn't careful, they may go the way of 3DFX. Don't get me wrong. I like Intel too... from my experience, their support is supurb and their staff (whoever answers the phone) are extremely nice people to talk to. I haven't had to deal with AMD yet though. AMD just has the advantage in the area that I'm interested in... FPU performance that is necessary for 3D games and design applications such as 3ds max, maya, lightwave, softimage etc. Perhaps with the Hyperthreading and special recompiles of their software, they'll be able to steam ahead - but right now, Intel is draggin their feet. .neuro

Kampf Pixelated Posts: 554 Joined: 2000-04-21

#11171 Posted on: 08/31/2001 08:37 AM This is bad. Not as bad as Apple's "MHz Myth" BS, but bad. PR is dead, buried, and the limos took Cyrix back and she drove home in her 89 Sentra long ago. Why dig it up again? Why, Why, Why! A couple Apple products and a bizarre ASUS S479 box.

DJS Your Reliable Partner Posts: 364 Joined: 2000-06-19

#11172 Posted on: 08/31/2001 10:59 AM The four Athlon XP processors will sport model numbers representing their relative performance when factoring in overall system performance. For example, the new Athlon XP 1500+ chip will equal a 1.33GHz processor. The 1600+ will equate to a 1.4GHz chip, the 1700+ will correspond to a 1.47GHz chip, and the 1800+ will equal a 1.53GHz processor, according to AMD. Infoworld Athlon XP?

Latino SMP Newbie Posts: 9 Joined: 2000-10-26

#11173 Posted on: 08/31/2001 01:29 PM Many of you seem to be complaining about AMD introducing this renovated version of the PR system, but think for a moment about AMDs position. Intel clearly designed the Pentium 4 to score high Mhz, at the cost of instructions per clock cycle. Although at the end of the day performance may be equivalent to a slower CPU with higher IPC, the fact that they run at faster Mhz is enough to fool the majority of people out there, who base their purchase on raw Mhz. This is a very clever strategic move from Intel, I must admit, and they do have a great processor that also performs very well indeed. Now poor young AMD clearly can't compete in the Mhz front, because the Athlon is not designed that way, and because they can't just create a new chip from one day to the next. They also have a very good performing chip, but the consumer market doesn't see that, and they buy on Mhz. Now, if you were AMD what would you do? To all those of you who condem AMD for its decision, propose alternatives. I doubt they can afford the expense of a huge marketing campaign to educate the end user that raw Mhz != higher performance, and they can't compete in the Mhz front either. It is a very difficult position for AMD. Shame, couse they made CPUs trully affordable to the rest of us.

poopooo Unregistered

#11174 Posted on: 08/31/2001 04:24 PM lol theres a 600 Mhz differents between these processors,how much is the 2Ghz p4 winning by? intel are the ones cheating the public, by extending the pineline there are able to clock the p4 higher and thus fool the general public...why do you all think the .13 micron p3 is vaporware? put a 1.5 Ghz p3 up against a 1.5 Ghz p4, and then you'll see some woop ass!, and the little old 6 gen processor will hand the 7th gen p4 it's nuts on a platter, intel sabotage it's own chips to fool the public.. intel inside is a warning label....

Erik Olofsson Aspiring Duallie Posts: 86 Joined: 2001-10-21

#11175 Posted on: 08/31/2001 06:46 PM What saves intel is its 400 MHz bus with dual channel memory, if AMD could redesign their CPUs to be on a faster bus, and develop a chipset with dual channel DDR, intels lead in Q3 and media encoding would prolly suddenly vanish... It would be very interesting to see a review where the bandwidth of memory and bus speed is capped for the p4, then you would be able to see exactly how good the processor is in comparison to AMDs, and not the whole system. Server Cube black case + 2xAthlon MP 1800+ + ASUS A7M266-D rev 103 + AX7 coolers + 3 GB Reg ECC Kingston

Kampf Pixelated Posts: 554 Joined: 2000-04-21

#11176 Posted on: 08/31/2001 07:20 PM Not so Erik. I've seen DDR SDRAM benchmarks with the P4 and it's still stomping mudholes into the AMD competition. The P4 is just that much better at utilizing a fast memory system. The P4 is a very, very good chip. They made some sacrifices in IPC, but it also makes the CPU speed scale much, much better. Chances are it was a combination of both. FWIW, Apple's latest G4 revision is actually slower than the previous one, but scales better in MHz. This is why we're seeing 867MHz G4 systems instead of just 667. As pathetic as that sounds. At least they have a dual 800 available, albeit in very limited quantities. In the end, this lame ranking system will fail, and probably get a lot of people pissed off at AMD. It's a shame. A couple Apple products and a bizarre ASUS S479 box.

Erik Olofsson Aspiring Duallie Posts: 86 Joined: 2001-10-21

#11177 Posted on: 09/01/2001 04:26 AM Exactly.. the 400 MHz bus... take that away also, what happens then? Server Cube black case + 2xAthlon MP 1800+ + ASUS A7M266-D rev 103 + AX7 coolers + 3 GB Reg ECC Kingston

Harry Nuckels Perspiring Duallie Posts: 118 Joined: 2000-06-06

#11178 Posted on: 09/01/2001 07:08 AM I think AMDs PR idea is super lame. That said, it appears that an Athlon MP system walks all over the dual Intel in almost ALL of the tasks *I* need in my business except encoding, in which case the P4 slaughters any AMD. I can see where AMD might be frustrated with the Mhz #s now, 2x1.2 AMD MPs stomps all over dual 1.7 P4 Xeons rendering-out animations in high-end 3d apps. From what I have been reading (benchmarks) the AMDs are out-performing the Intels in most benchmarks. If I am wrong please point me to info saying otherwise. I could not care less about name brands, I want reliable powerful performance for my money as a business decision. The faster I can crank out complex scenes/frames the more $$$ for me. Right now, AMD has it. All this arguing over which is best is all semantics and bias as to which team your on. The real question asks which apps will you be running on the system. If I were buying mission critical servers for a corp. I think I would go with Intels track record at this point. But again, This thread is about AMD marketing, and again I think AMD should re-think their plans, (if they are as reported).

2CPU.com » News » August 2001 » AMD: A Rose by any other Name...