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How to Kill Linux

Posted by: duke on: 02/23/2005 03:04 PM [ Print | 85 comment(s) ]

OSNews posted a link to an "opinion column" by a John C. Dvorak... he seems to have a way for Microsoft to kill Linux.

The idea here would be to cut the driver layer out of Windows and attach it to Linux directly. This would become MS-Linux. If Microsoft actually produced an MS-Linux that was the standard Linux attached to the driver layer of Windows, giving users full Plug and Play (PnP) support of all their peripherals, nobody would buy any other Linux on the market.

What do you think about this? [Ed - You have to love flamebait posts like this!]

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34821 Posted on: 02/24/2005 06:29 AM O I am sorry I misspelled a word plz forgive me. Murdock is right I should have left it alone. Ignorance is bliss. Maybe you should be a English teacher.

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AssKoala Anti-Zealot @ GATech Posts: 3309 Joined: 2002-01-02

#34822 Posted on: 02/24/2005 06:40 AM Originally posted by ConVicTioN O I am sorry I misspelled a word plz forgive me. Murdock is right I should have left it alone. Ignorance is bliss. Maybe you should be a English teacher. The irony. Me Webpage | If you always think like an expert, you'll always be a beginner. | "A handful of knowledgeable people is more effective than an army of fools" -Writing Secure Code, 2nd Ed.

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Murdock Captain Posts: 1398 Joined: 2001-07-02

#34823 Posted on: 02/24/2005 06:43 AM Okay... so you think I'm ignorant. I think (based on the link you provided) you're suffering from paranoid delusions. We each are entitled to our opinions and they aren't likely to be changed. Let's agree on that and move on. Personally, I think the irony of the whole MS crowd vs. *nix crowd is they are really both right... The defecencies in Windows are easily overcome by an experienced user, but experienced users are in the minority of windows users. *Nix is potentially much more secure and capable of babysitting an inexperienced user, but inexperienced users are all running Windows. The irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife. And to be honest, I wouldn't mind being an English teacher. (no offense intended... I just couldn't pass it up ) The pathetic state of our government will never change unless we stop electing politicians and start electing public servants. Remember: There was once a time when the term "politician" had a very negative connotation.

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34824 Posted on: 02/24/2005 06:56 AM No Murdock sorry, I dont think your ignorant or anyone else for that matter. I was just agreeing with your wisdom about my post. I post hard facts and links to ms's eula and what do I get back. You misspelled something. If you truly dont see the steps MS is taking and why then I am sorry. I get called pariond or slamed in some other way beside hard cold facts. Attack me all you want the facts stands MS wants more and more control. SCO is a simple example. Paranoid beat u to it .

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Jim_ Administrator Posts: 3464 Joined: 2000-03-15

#34825 Posted on: 02/24/2005 07:02 AM Originally posted by Murdock On a seperate note... Is it just me or is Duke throwing all sorts of flame bate as of late? My mandate to Duke is simply this: post what you can find. If it's hardware-related, good. If it's operating system-related, good. I don't mind if he posts about the odd editorial or controversial topic. At the very least it generates some interesting debates and back-and-forth. The downside is that often someone gets offended and the quality of the posts spiral out of control. The one thing that I'll continue to recommend until I'm blue in the face is this: please submit news. We might be missing excellent articles. The internet is a large place, and we certainly don't have time to scour all of it. Once the new content management system is in place, we'll be accepting news submissions a la Slashdot. Our hope is that it will increase participation from you guys. We love the community we have here and we hope it grows larger and gets stronger. [url="http://www.2cpu.com"][size=1]2CPU.com[/url] - Because two are always better than one! [url="http://www.jimkirk.org"]jimkirk.org[/url] - Not a Myth any Longer. Just a Dad.[/size]

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34826 Posted on: 02/24/2005 07:13 AM I was wondering when you guys where going to port. What CMS are you going with or are guys still working on the custom frontend? I need a on the fly editor .

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Murdock Captain Posts: 1398 Joined: 2001-07-02

#34827 Posted on: 02/24/2005 07:13 AM ConVicTioN: If you mean more control of the markets that MS is in, then yes, we agree there also. The material on the site you linked to isn't patently false, but to claim that it's "hard facts" isn't entirely correct either. I see a large amount of speculation that is backed up by facts, but it is speculation none the less. And my previous post wasn't intended to be an attack... just my interpritation of the information that is available to me. To clarify, if you do indeed agree with (mostly or in whole) the link you provided and believe that microsoft is behind some sinister plot for world domination then, yes, I stand by my earlier opinion. _Jim: My comment about the flame bait was mostly in jest. I'm glad to see the quantity and quality of news postings on the site, and hope he and the other news-posters keep up the good work. The pathetic state of our government will never change unless we stop electing politicians and start electing public servants. Remember: There was once a time when the term "politician" had a very negative connotation.

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34828 Posted on: 02/24/2005 07:16 AM I totally agree. Well said so much better then my english which is my third lang. I never said MS wanted to rule the world just your wallet .

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34829 Posted on: 02/24/2005 07:31 AM A quote straight form MS eula is not hard facts? Read the eula then come tell me its not hard facts.

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34830 Posted on: 02/24/2005 07:39 AM I bought a pc the other day. Some stange reason it had XBOX in big green letters on it.

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sAvAgE69 Unregistered

#34831 Posted on: 02/24/2005 10:26 AM That was one hell of a rant. however He does make some good points.

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terminalrecluse is home now Posts: 3802 Joined: 2004-08-07

#34832 Posted on: 02/24/2005 10:39 AM Originally posted by DPMitchell Why don't people run Linux on the Mac? Because OSX > Linux on the Mac platform. 121 total Ghz, 304GB in total memory... Arch Linux - stable : 3930k @ 4.4Ghz, 64GB DDR3, 120GB Samsung 840, HX850 DAS - Norco 4020 - 20x Seagate 3TB, 1KW PSU FBSD 10 ZFS server - SM Chassis, SM X8DTE, 2x L5520 Xeons, 48GB Reg DDR3 ULP, IBM 5015 w/ 512MB DDR2 cache, RAID-50 - 42TB storage Dell C6100 - 4 nodes, 2 1.1KW psu's, 2x L5520s, 6x e5530s, 192GB reg DDR3 (48GB each), F@H, etc

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KimVette Corvette Fanatic Posts: 945 Joined: 2002-07-30

#34833 Posted on: 02/24/2005 10:46 AM Originally posted by DPMitchell Why don't people run Linux on the Mac? Because their cult leader Steve Jobs would be angered. (Hey Mac users, I'm KIDDING, You know, a JOKE? Really, I was kidding! HELP! ! HELP!!!!!) Seriously though, there are several Linux distributions for the Macintosh. I was thinking of trying one of them on my B&W G3. --Kim My configuration: Many hopelessly outdated SMP boxen. Any system which is shipping is already obsolete! u r lame if u insist on trying 2 b l337 by abbrev evythng u type when asking ppl 4 hlp. kiddie speak is teh sux. ppl. plz stop teh kiddie speak. thx. hint: aol kiddie speak is not cool, it just makes people not want to read your post.

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34834 Posted on: 02/24/2005 11:40 AM http://www.winehq.com/?issue=262#News:%20Microsoft%20Looks%20for%20Wine

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opus13 misanthrope. Posts: 1628 Joined: 2002-04-05

#34835 Posted on: 02/24/2005 11:53 AM Originally posted by VincentVega I am not sure where opus13 gets his $4 billion figure from. Was Apple even worth that much when Bill made his investment? i thought it was around 96 or maybe 97. ms licensed apples patent portfolio in exchange for an exorbitant amount of cash. there was a pretty significant amount of hoopla surrounding the deal. everyone said that (at the time) it would be the demise of everything apple. i believe it was actually the big kick in teh pants that got them back into relevency. it might not have been as mich as 4 billion, but im sure that it was more that a couple hundred million.

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duraid SMP Qualified Posts: 387 Joined: 2002-03-31

#34836 Posted on: 02/24/2005 04:52 PM Originally posted by AssKoala How about the "Microsoft purposely cripples its own File System so you can't make a backup". Yeah. That's it. Didn't bother reading the link, but is there a real dump/restore for NTFS? Jesus, if I remember right, you can't even have two processes writing the same file simultaneously. Have they fixed NTFS yet? Probably not. Microsoft filesystems really are "teh suck".

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hurkummer SMP Newbie Posts: 1 Joined: 2005-02-24

#34837 Posted on: 02/24/2005 06:55 PM Originally posted by locovaca Price of macs, performance, availability of software, hardware support. 1. Macs cost more 2. Performance of most optimized applications on a mac doesn't live up to a x86 based linux machine at same price level 3. Software that has inline ASM doesn't work, period. Generally it's not the mainstream application's fault but dependencies on libraries which haven't been ported. 4. Ever tried running an Airport Extreme card under Linux? And, many x86 drivers DO have ASM built into the driver, which means it won't run under PPC Linux. This is coming from a PB 17" owner and a Gentoo Linux user... Beware of exploding powerbooks... LOL dude, Ubuntu works great on an Ibook, dunno about pbooks but then THOSE are expensive.. macs are not expensive and OS-X is great. Linux is even better (it's free as in liberty) but really, linux works just fine... yeah, if you want an airport extreme card to work you should google for one of the broadcom petition sites and sign up... otherwise? a 25 buck usb wlan adapter works charms, and you can kismet safely with it too.... Oh and as far as performance is concerned.. I played Homeworld 2 on both an AMB 2000 MGHZ 51mb ram NVIDIA 256 mb b;a bla and on my freaking Ibook 1,2 512 ati 32 and the performance was very similar, of course the ibook is 12 inch and the amd had a 17 inch but even then... dude mips ain't the whole story... wait states are..

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sAvAgE69 Unregistered

#34838 Posted on: 02/24/2005 07:08 PM ConVicTioN http://www.winehq.com/?issue=262#Ne...ks%20for%20Wine There. Billy is pouting again. Were not playing with HIS toys in the sandbox routine. :rolleyes:

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terminalrecluse is home now Posts: 3802 Joined: 2004-08-07

#34839 Posted on: 02/24/2005 08:34 PM Why the hell would you run linux on a mac? OSX is getting increasingly more fine tuned for the Mac hardware. It only seems reasonable to run Panther on your Mac as it was designed and fine tuned to do so. Many applications if not all of them that run under Linux can be run on a Mac running OSX. 121 total Ghz, 304GB in total memory... Arch Linux - stable : 3930k @ 4.4Ghz, 64GB DDR3, 120GB Samsung 840, HX850 DAS - Norco 4020 - 20x Seagate 3TB, 1KW PSU FBSD 10 ZFS server - SM Chassis, SM X8DTE, 2x L5520 Xeons, 48GB Reg DDR3 ULP, IBM 5015 w/ 512MB DDR2 cache, RAID-50 - 42TB storage Dell C6100 - 4 nodes, 2 1.1KW psu's, 2x L5520s, 6x e5530s, 192GB reg DDR3 (48GB each), F@H, etc

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34840 Posted on: 02/24/2005 09:53 PM Yea I was just giving another example of hard facts the english teachers might want to look at. I did not want to go into NTFS since it was very evident that he has not worked with this crap filesystem.

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Murdock Captain Posts: 1398 Joined: 2001-07-02

#34841 Posted on: 02/24/2005 10:03 PM Great. You don't like MS. We get the point already. Again... just because you've linked to something that does have factual information does not mean that the entire thing is correct. The EULA is a perfect example. Just becasue you quoted an MS document doesn't change the fact that "Here's what that document really means" is still someones interpritation. Nothing more, nothing less. And if it makes you feel better. Microsoft is crap Windows is crap. NTFS is crap. It's all crap. I'm just some poor ignorant slob that's been in the industry for more than a decade and I've been suckered all of this time. Does that make you feel better, or can I look forward to you posting more "hard opinions" ??? The pathetic state of our government will never change unless we stop electing politicians and start electing public servants. Remember: There was once a time when the term "politician" had a very negative connotation.

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rmn oh my, it's huge! Posts: 6013 Joined: 2002-01-26

#34842 Posted on: 02/24/2005 10:41 PM NTFS is actually quite civilised. The APIs to make good use of it, however, are either secret or carefully "filed" somewhere under a rock in Tasmania. I had a conversation with a Microsoft programmer a couple of years ago and learned how to do a lot of tricks with NTFS (forgot most of it by now, although I probably still have the code somewhere). Maybe some of that stuff has become public by now, but I remember it wasn't anywhere on MSDN back then. Regarding Macs and Linux, in most server tests I've seen, Linux is slightly faster than OSX, running on a G5. RMN ~~~

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AssKoala Anti-Zealot @ GATech Posts: 3309 Joined: 2002-01-02

#34843 Posted on: 02/24/2005 10:44 PM Originally posted by duraid Didn't bother reading the link, but is there a real dump/restore for NTFS? Jesus, if I remember right, you can't even have two processes writing the same file simultaneously. Have they fixed NTFS yet? Probably not. Microsoft filesystems really are "teh suck". NTFS locks files when a process is writing to them, they can be read any number of times. Personally, I think its arguable whether that's good or bad. The bad part, of course, is that if a file is opened for writing you can't delete it. That is a pain in the ass. The good part is you don't have two process writing to the same thing at once, which in many cases may be undesired. As for dumping/restoring the file system, there's nothing that stops you from doing file copies but you can't make a direct copy. Microsoft's page, however, states specifically that only the use of filesystem backup software like Norton Ghost is supported (or Microsoft's drive backup prep. application). The point isn't that you can't do it the same way, that'd just be stupid (but I'm sure you'll respond with one of your famous assenine posts), just that you can backup your hard-drive. And you can, without paying anything (using MS's drive backup tool). Me Webpage | If you always think like an expert, you'll always be a beginner. | "A handful of knowledgeable people is more effective than an army of fools" -Writing Secure Code, 2nd Ed.

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locovaca That's what she said Posts: 176 Joined: 2001-07-17

#34844 Posted on: 02/25/2005 01:45 AM Originally posted by hurkummer Beware of exploding powerbooks... LOL dude, Ubuntu works great on an Ibook, dunno about pbooks but then THOSE are expensive.. macs are not expensive and OS-X is great. Linux is even better (it's free as in liberty) but really, linux works just fine... yeah, if you want an airport extreme card to work you should google for one of the broadcom petition sites and sign up... otherwise? a 25 buck usb wlan adapter works charms, and you can kismet safely with it too.... Oh and as far as performance is concerned.. I played Homeworld 2 on both an AMB 2000 MGHZ 51mb ram NVIDIA 256 mb b;a bla and on my freaking Ibook 1,2 512 ati 32 and the performance was very similar, of course the ibook is 12 inch and the amd had a 17 inch but even then... dude mips ain't the whole story... wait states are.. Ah, but A. I don't want to buy an external wireless adapter B. Anything *nix-y I need I can compile under OS X C. Anything *nix-y that doesn't fall into B I just run through SSH tunnels on X11 In terms of syntheic benchmarks my Mac is definitely outperformed by my Single Athlon XP 1700+'s and dual Athlon MP 1600+'s. In terms of real world performance both are fast enough for me. Now, I'm not talking about optimized code. Put optimized Altivec vs. optimized SSE2/3 and you have a fight (although not as close on the G4 as the G5). The problem is that most Linux apps are written and optimized for X86- I'm not talking about your Ma and Pa MP3 player but some of the bigger name apps. Compiling != optimization. Just because it'll compile on a PPC doesn't mean it's going to run quickly... (And I have no disappointments with the speed of Gentoo, just some of the minor Linux things like Power Management, External Displays (I have an external LCD as well), AE as I already mentioned, etc.) Besides, I didn't sell my Inspiron 8500 for a PB just so I could run Linux on it

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ConVicTioN SMP Newbie Posts: 30 Joined: 2004-11-11

#34845 Posted on: 02/25/2005 02:12 AM The bad part, of course, is that if a file is opened for writing you can't delete it. That is a pain in the ass. The good part is you don't have two process writing to the same thing at once, which in many cases may be undesired. As for dumping/restoring the file system, there's nothing that stops you from doing file copies but you can't make a direct copy. Microsoft's page, however, states specifically that only the use of filesystem backup software like Norton Ghost is supported (or Microsoft's drive backup prep. application). You know asskola you just explained what the article I posted was stating. Why do you think this is not designed this way. Your earlier post stated other wise. Kind of ironic that its only certain files. Give them a call see what they have to say about 3party apps. No one remember arc and what ms did wow. Lets not forget about Netscape or Java. How is what MS is doing to wine not facts. I have test the MD5 from slashdot have you Murdock looks like a hard fact to me. As some of you may know, Microsoft is planning to totally restrict access to the Microsoft download center to all non-genuine Windows users. So you would expect some check for pirated copies of Windows to be involved. If you visit the download center with IE you get an activex control, but if you try with Firefox, you'll have to download a little program, that returns a code you have to copy into the download page, to get access to the download you selected. By quickly looking at the program, I noticed it looks for a registry key, this key is... SOFTWARE\Wine\Wine\Config the Wine configuration key. The Windows Genuine Advantage program press release http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/jan05/01-26GenuineAdvantagePR.asp says that in the second half of 2005, all users connecting to the Microsoft download center or to Windows update will have to validate their copy of Windows. Interestingly if you run the validation program on wine, and the version of windows you're emulating is prior to 2000 or is windows server 20003, you get a message saying a validation code couldn't be found, because of technical difficulties or because you're running an unsupported operating system. If you set winver to win2000, you'll get a validation code that doesn't work, this may be a bug in wine, or in the validation program. A valid and working code is returned if the version is set to XP. Still, even if this is only an initial attempt, they appear to want to discriminate Wine users, while this may be acceptable for operating system components/updates, this is probably a violation of anti-trust law for all other downloads. It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine. I guess slashdot and winehq just have opions as well.